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Live Aquaria woes


zygote2k

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One of my clients ordered fish from Live Aquaria only to have 6 out of the 7 die within a week plus 4 of his older existing fish.
Looks like velvet.

I heard the LA customer service rep tell the client that they QT their fish "up to 2 weeks".
This seems rather low amount of time for QT.

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It happened to my buddy tank too but he order in the on sale section . Which is really cheap . I doubt it is QT unless you order at diver section.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I didn't have such experience with LA so far, but in generally I realized especially with Fish, Cheap means High RISK.

Unless we have our own QT which offsets this Cheap prices, we are playing the game.

 

Marco's QT and reefescape QT are the only sources I trust and put the fish directly into my DT.

 

The risk is highly multiplied when we are adding one fish bought from these cheaper sources to existing healthy fish in our system. 

I have personally experienced for myself that the cheaper prices and the cost of QT, fish die in QT and cost/time of existing fish killed is NOT AT ALL WORTHY!

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BRK also QT's . While I haven't bought much lately, I did have better than good success with his stuff too.

You realize that you still should QT yourself regardless of where you buy from.

Members too, since your tank and parameters are likely different and the fish is going from one environment to another.

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I noticed LA salinity to be 1.017 so a good drip acclimation is in order and can take some patients if you order a lot of fish. Diver den was 1.025. I'll pay for convienence and just have ERC QT if I ever need fish again

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BRK also QT's . While I haven't bought much lately, I did have better than good success with his stuff too.

You realize that you still should QT yourself regardless of where you buy from.

Members too, since your tank and parameters are likely different and the fish is going from one environment to another.

+1, QT is a must regardless of where you get the live stock

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BRK also QT's . While I haven't bought much lately, I did have better than good success with his stuff too.

You realize that you still should QT yourself regardless of where you buy from.

Members too, since your tank and parameters are likely different and the fish is going from one environment to another.

 

QT on what? They go from shipping bags to drip acclimation in buckets to the holding tanks.

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QT on what? They go from shipping bags to drip acclimation in buckets to the holding tanks.

Your environment.  Shipping is highly stressful on fish.  You want to make sure they are eating (without getting harassed by other tank mates) and to make sure there are no signs of disease or infection.  It is a lot easier to treat fish in a smaller tank with meds than in a full blown aquarium with inverts, fish,live rock, coral.  As people have mentioned, most of the time the salinity is different, so slowly adjusting the salinity in the QT tank to your salinity level is important.  QT'ing your fish will ensure a better survival rate. 

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Your environment.  Shipping is highly stressful on fish.  You want to make sure they are eating (without getting harassed by other tank mates) and to make sure there are no signs of disease or infection.  It is a lot easier to treat fish in a smaller tank with meds than in a full blown aquarium with inverts, fish,live rock, coral.  As people have mentioned, most of the time the salinity is different, so slowly adjusting the salinity in the QT tank to your salinity level is important.  QT'ing your fish will ensure a better survival rate. 

 

I was referring to BRK. 

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And I dont mean this to sound like I dont support BRK, I absolutely do and continue to shop there. Very few shops have the space/infrastructure to properly quarantine fish. 

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I have a vague memory, from back when BRK was changing locations, of Johnny talking about the QT system, and saying something about the new place not having enough space for the QT stuff he had going on in the old location. Of course he would have to speak to this issue himself.

 

I believe QT is really the customer's responsibility. A good LFS will educate customers about setting up and using a QT, and answer any questions about the procedures (in exchange for the educating, the staff gets a chance to sell more stuff, for QT equipment/supplies). A good store will also inform customers of the salinity in the shop tanks, and whether or not any copper or other chemical treatments were used.

 

Most shops don't have space for routine QT of all incoming livestock. If they are paying higher rent to have the space for it, plus using more resources to do it, then they should also charge higher prices and all you demanding customers should be very happy to pay more than you would at some other place.

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I have a vague memory, from back when BRK was changing locations, of Johnny talking about the QT system, and saying something about the new place not having enough space for the QT stuff he had going on in the old location. Of course he would have to speak to this issue himself.

 

I believe QT is really the customer's responsibility. A good LFS will educate customers about setting up and using a QT, and answer any questions about the procedures (in exchange for the educating, the staff gets a chance to sell more stuff, for QT equipment/supplies). A good store will also inform customers of the salinity in the shop tanks, and whether or not any copper or other chemical treatments were used.

 

Most shops don't have space for routine QT of all incoming livestock. If they are paying higher rent to have the space for it, plus using more resources to do it, then they should also charge higher prices and all you demanding customers should be very happy to pay more than you would at some other place.

with that said- I don't know of any shop in the area that does real QT process- and that's why I suggested that the customer order from LA. 

FWIW, our shop (not open to the public) has a dedicated fish QT system where we nuke fish for 14 days in copper, then place them in another seperate holding system for observation for 2 additional weeks before being placed in various client tanks.

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One of my clients ordered fish from Live Aquaria only to have 6 out of the 7 die within a week plus 4 of his older existing fish.

Looks like velvet.

 

I heard the LA customer service rep tell the client that they QT their fish "up to 2 weeks".

This seems rather low amount of time for QT.

I agree that two weeks is generally not much time for a proper QT. However, you'd think that it was enough to recover from stresses of transoceanic shipping. You'd also think it was enough to reveal the presence of Velvet in the system. (The average lifecycle of Amyloodinium is 4 days, so two weeks would be plenty of time for multiple cycles for explosive growth.) That is, unless, it was not a properly set up QT system and stock was being continuously rotated through the system (in which case it's a holding system and not a QT system). 

 

with that said- I don't know of any shop in the area that does real QT process- and that's why I suggested that the customer order from LA. 

FWIW, our shop (not open to the public) has a dedicated fish QT system where we nuke fish for 14 days in copper, then place them in another seperate holding system for observation for 2 additional weeks before being placed in various client tanks.

While he doesn't have a brick-and-mortar shop, Marco (aka Exotic Reef Creations), seems to have a decent QT and prophylaxis treatment regiment for the fish that he sells. Of course, by doing so, he takes on a lot of the risk that would otherwise be shifted to the aquarist, and therefore you'll pay a bit more for the service. 

 

LA has two different facilities that treat their fish differently, don't they? The LA facility treats their fish differently than the one up in Wisconsin? 

 

Live Aquaria Diver's Den QT Procedure for Marine Fish (Rhinelander, WI facility)

 

Fish out of the Los Angeles facility don't seem to go through a published protocol. It seems more like an acclimation-observation-hospital system from the description provided here.

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I suspect that it's a holding system and not a dedicated/medicated hospital system.

 

As far as QT'ing of fish locally, I have a dedicated  300g QT system where we nuke fish for 2 weeks in copper, then a  150g holding system where we hold them for an additional 2 weeks before selling them.

 

I suggested Live Aquaria because the client didn't want to wait a whole month to get a fish.

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Guys, this is an ages old discussion/debate on what is appropriate.  From a purist perspective, QT is NOT treatment, it is simply observing for an extended period of time to see what comes out.  Hospital tanks are then used to treat.  Prophylactic treatment is not always good for animals but if you don't treat, you must understand that you are risking some common ailments coming out in your system.  Even if you do treat, the ability to get everything out of the fish is slim to none as treatments to remove every single pathogen are non-existent and you have to use a cocktail to get the most of them out of there.  As Rob and others mentioned, 2 weeks is not enough time to properly QT, let alone treat, a fish, but you get what you pay for.  Even 2 weeks in copper as people have suggested is insufficient for all ailments and for some fish, is not possible to do as heavy metals do more harm than good for some.

 

In the end, your best bet is to QT for observation and see if anything comes out.  If you QT for 6-8 weeks you in theory should see most pathogens surface and if you QT in hyposalinity, even better.  In the public aquarium realm there are many protocols that call for 90 days of QT for EVERYTHING including rock, clean up crew, etc.  If it's biological, it needs to go through QT, even some feeders, although that is skipped in some cases since their life cycle is not even 90 days long.

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Successfully shipping live corals and fish in winter or the heat of summer can't be a simple thing. I am not going to condemn Live Aquaria assuming this was there mistake.

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Guys, this is an ages old discussion/debate on what is appropriate.  From a purist perspective, QT is NOT treatment, it is simply observing for an extended period of time to see what comes out.  Hospital tanks are then used to treat.  Prophylactic treatment is not always good for animals but if you don't treat, you must understand that you are risking some common ailments coming out in your system.  Even if you do treat, the ability to get everything out of the fish is slim to none as treatments to remove every single pathogen are non-existent and you have to use a cocktail to get the most of them out of there.  As Rob and others mentioned, 2 weeks is not enough time to properly QT, let alone treat, a fish, but you get what you pay for.  Even 2 weeks in copper as people have suggested is insufficient for all ailments and for some fish, is not possible to do as heavy metals do more harm than good for some.

 

In the end, your best bet is to QT for observation and see if anything comes out.  If you QT for 6-8 weeks you in theory should see most pathogens surface and if you QT in hyposalinity, even better.  In the public aquarium realm there are many protocols that call for 90 days of QT for EVERYTHING including rock, clean up crew, etc.  If it's biological, it needs to go through QT, even some feeders, although that is skipped in some cases since their life cycle is not even 90 days long.

 

Agreed. QT is not hospitalization/treatment.However, the latter can follow on the heels of the former if the observation period indicates it. 

 

I like Rob's reference to a holding system. I agree that a "hold" for 2 weeks might be oversold as "QT." It's probably better characterized as an hold for observation and stress recovery. 

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was it LA or divers den ?

 

both different facilities 

I have gotten a couple times a while ago from LA - had 50% mortality

 

I have ordered several times from Divers Den - 0 Issues , very healthy fish 

 

 

both offer the 14 day guarantee for peace of mind.

 

I would pay the small premium of Divers den and will continue to get from them.

 

the other place i highly recommend is TSM corals ( NJ), I am also going to try zoacollecter...he gets rave reviews!

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In the end, your best bet is to QT for observation and see if anything comes out.  If you QT for 6-8 weeks you in theory should see most pathogens surface and if you QT in hyposalinity, even better.

 

Dave,

 

The risk here is that a fish can harbor pathogens at low levels that don't present any symptoms at all. To complicate this, most aquarists are not experienced enough to detect the subtle symptoms that do occur with an early infection, and don't diagnose until it becomes a full-blown outbreak.

 

If you're going to go to the effort of keeping new fish isolated in their own tank for 6-8 weeks, it doesn't seem like much additional effort to medicate them.

 

A QT for observation does have value in helping fish recover from shipping, so long as the QT tank is a healthy environment.  But I think it's unlikely that most people will detect an infected fish unless it's obvious. 

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Dave,

 

The risk here is that a fish can harbor pathogens at low levels that don't present any symptoms at all. To complicate this, most aquarists are not experienced enough to detect the subtle symptoms that do occur with an early infection, and don't diagnose until it becomes a full-blown outbreak.

 

If you're going to go to the effort of keeping new fish isolated in their own tank for 6-8 weeks, it doesn't seem like much additional effort to medicate them.

 

A QT for observation does have value in helping fish recover from shipping, so long as the QT tank is a healthy environment.  But I think it's unlikely that most people will detect an infected fish unless it's obvious. 

 

agree. the main factor here, is that most people do not have the patience to go through the QT and expect too much from stores. Local and/or internet based. there is no substitute for proper husbandry. 

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  • 4 months later...

I’ve been lucky, I guess. I just setup a 125G mid-March. I got a PBT (on sale) and three Squam Anthias from LiveAquaria - all eating wonderfully.

 

 

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Live Aquaria uses two facilities, but in reality only one of these facilities is actually run by Live Aquaria. The Rhinelander Wisconsin facility is the Live Aquaria Diver's Den shop. They own and run it. The Los Angeles facility is actually a distributor known as Sustainable Aquatics, all livestock coming from Live Aquaria's west coast facility is shipped directly from SA.

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