Orange Spotted Filefish Adventure Continues

[arking_mark]

I was hesitant to start this thread because I know I'll get some negative feedback. So I'll start with a disclaimer, and ask people to look at this as an opportunity to learn more about these fish.

 

This is a follow-up to a previous thread about my attempt to keep the Orange Spotted Filefish which I like to refer to as OSF, but otherwise known as the Harlequin Filefish or Oxymonacanthus longirostris.

 

http://wamas.org/forums/topic/77102-orange-spotted-filefish-adventure-follow-along

 

Disclaimer to those who object to keeping expert only fish that don't do well in the home aquarium:

 

From a micro level, we are keeping livestock outside their natural inhabitant and putting them in an inherently unsafe position from a health and longevity perspective (minimally: susceptible to human error and equipment failure).

 

From a macro level, we are supporting an industry that contributes to the pillaging of our reefs and the deaths of untold number of creatures. (Aquacultured marine life is better but also has its issues with death and living conditions)

 

There is NO RESPONSIBLE reef keeping only LESS IRRESPONSIBLE reef keeping and everyone draws the line somewhere. If you are too the left of me, your a tree hugging nut; if your to the right of me your an eco terrorist. It’s all relative.

 

For me, this hobby is about beauty and the challenge of creating and maintaining a small reef in my home. As long as your are giving your livestock an OPPORTUNITY to thrive, your LESS IRRESPONSIBLE in my book.

 

Now let's get this thread back on topic...

 

So I am on my 4th OSF.

 

The 2nd, I got from a local who had the fish weaned to Panta Nouri Polyp, a pellet food for polyp eating fish. Unfortunately, the fish was paper thin and did not eat pellets or coral from my tank. It was RIP in 1 week. I suspect that the transfer and acclimation to a new tank was too much for the OSF who probably needed So more time to fatten up.

 

The 3rd was an order from Divers Den. It was DOA.

 

The 4th was an order from DD as well. It can on Friday 24th of March.

 

I am sharing these experiences to illustrate how hard it is to get these fish even in a condition that one can begin to acclimate and wean these fish.

Edited March 26, 2017 by arking_mark

[arking_mark]

I am starting this fish in an acclimation box in my 34gal RSM 130. I believe this tank will provide the OSF with the most stable environment. I have cleared out all expensive fish with the exception of a Target Mandarin and 5 Red Spot Cardinal fish who were recently added.

 

I am prepared with:

- Several coral skeletons

- Three different pellets including Panta Nouri Polyp

- Three frozen fish foods: LRS Reef Frenzy, PE Mysis, and Nutrimar Ova

- Several live SPS: Acropora Millepora, Pocillopora, Stag, Rainbow Birdsnest, Green Birdsnest, Bird of Paradise

- Live Food: Adult Brine Shrimp and Blood Worms from LFS

 

Plan is to throw a mix at the fish on day 1 to see if it will just eat. Then try alternating live coral with coral coated with different mixes of food.

 

A new technique I tried with the 2rd OSF has me excited. Dip the coral skeleton in saltwater mixed with nutrimar ova then sprinkle on the Nouri Polyp and let dry. End result looks like a coral with polyps! And since Nouri polyp is supposed to be for polyp eating fish, one can only hope.

 

The goal is to feed 4-6 times a day with one or two long periods with live coral. My previous experience with the OSF, was that it can last a little over a month with minimal eating. If you can't get it eating regularly by then, it's a failure. Sample size one…and no other data points except from Matt Pederson.

[arking_mark]

Day 1 & 2 = unbelievable success! Got lucky with OSF.

 

Day 1:

- Fish arrived alive this time.

- Smallest OSF I have gotten at less then 2"

- Acclimation went well

- Called DD to see what they had been feeding it. According to DD: Combo of frozen, pellet, and brine shrimp with exposure to coral.

- Threw a mix of LRS Frenzy, PE Mysis, Nutramar Ova, and live Brine at it. It ate one live brine shrimp. 1st time I have see an OSF not on YouTube eat from water column.

 

Day 2:

- Threw same mix again and it literally went after stuff but seemed to focus on Live Brine Shrimp. It did sample other things but spit out what was not brine shrimp.

- Did three more feedings of just brine shrimp...eating ~25 till it seemed full. I am on cloud 9. An OSF that is eating live brine shrimp from the water column.

- Did one more mixed feeding with just brine shrimp and pellets...sampled pellets, but really focused on brine shrimp.

 

While I don't want to jump the gun, this is success beyond any expectations. I think I got a healthy weaned OSF from DD. So I can't claim that my techniques or experience got me anywhere.

 

Now I will continue to feed live brine with panta nouri polyp pellets. May mix in Ova and Frenzy.

 

The PE Mysis are definitely too large and will be removed from the rotation.

 

I believe the OSF can live on gut loaded enriched frozen brine shrimp.

[davelin315]

Try Hikari, much smaller mysis, I believe they might actually be mysids which are the saltwater variety?

[arking_mark]

Dave-

 

As always great advice!

 

Is there a frozen enriched brine that provides complete nutrition?

 

I always heard brine shrimp are like popcorn. Fish love to eat it. It has some good qualities, but ultimately can't sustain fish long term. My researched indicates that enriched brine shrimp is complete...but couldn't find definitive info.

[arking_mark]

Video of her eating:

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgZxHG5u0INfrJYfUjK4ixweemABog

[Tommy]

Such a cool fish !!  Good luck !!!

[arking_mark]

So I found some great info on SPS nutritional value on another site thread:

 

Zinky

Jul 19, 2015 · #24

 

 

Well that is depressing, but I think I may have found a solution. I've been looking more into the nutrition content of acropora and came up with this:

 

1) An acopora coral polyp is 95% water (Tricas, Prey selection by coral-feeding butterflyfishes: strategies to maximize the profit)

 

2) Lipids constitute up to 40% of the dry weight of acropora polyps (Imbs, Biosynthesis of Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids in Zooxanthellae and Polyps of Corals)

 

3) Imbs found that in acropora, "saturated FAs, mostly 16 : 0 and 18 : 0, in zooxanthellae of Acropora sp. made 22.4 ± 8.0% of the total FA, respectively, these values were significantly (P < 0.01) lower than the share of the acids in polyp tissues (31.9 ± 0.3%). The share of PUFAs in the total FAs of zooxanthellae of Acropora sp. (62.6 ± 6.4%, respectively) was higher than in the polyp tissues of these coral species (45.9 ± 1.7%) (P < 0.01)."

 

4) The main fatty acids found by Imbs in polyp tissues were 20 : 4n–6, 16 : 2n–7, 18 : 2n–7, and 24 : 5n–6. The main FAs of zooxanthellae were 18 : 3n–6, 18 : 4n–3, 20 : 5n–3, and 22 : 6n–3, while acids 20 : 4n–6, 22 : 4n–6 and 22 : 5n–3 predominated in the polyp tissues. Low amounts of 16 : 2n–7 and 16 : 3n–4 (less than 0.4% of the total value) were found in zooxanthellae of the hard coral..... for anyone still with me on this, this pretty much just means that the majority of lipids contained in acropora polyps consists of conjugated, omega 3, and omega 6 fatty acids.

 

So this means that nearly half of an oxy files energy comes from lipids!! What's more, the majority of the lipids are coming from omega 3s and 6s. These fats are highly unstable and break down very easily when they are exposed to high heat. This would lead me to believe that foods containing high starch and low fats (i.e. pellet/flake) are unsuitable for oxy files. The high PUFA content required by these fish is probably the reason that they have such a bad track record. The majority of foods available in the hobby, with the exception of fresh/frozen and those soaked in selcon, are virtually lacking in PUFAs. The little fat that they do contain comes from saturated and trans fats (molecules are more stable and easier to preserve). For example, New Life Spectrum Marine pellets only guarantee a 7% fat content in their food, not listing what fats are available, which can roughly translate into all of it being saturated and/or trans. If an oxy file were fed on this diet alone they would be missing out on nearly 33% of their required fat intake and all of their PUFAs. The lack of food containing the correct fat profile is most likely the cause of these fish lasting for 6 months, but never filling out and wasting away as described by Doug.

 

So, based on these new findings, I will start actively feeding my file foods that are high in polyunsaturated fatty acids. I'll continue use of selcon but I think I'll need to do more than just soak food. I think I'll see if I can get her to eat some of the salmon I have in the fridge (wild caught, no color added) and find some good roe (fish eggs) at the korean supermarket near me. Does anyone else have a food recommendation?

 

[zygote2k]

Why try to get it to switch its' diet to polyps if it's already eating brine shrimp?

Seems like yet another waste of time, effort, and possibly the fishes' life.

I'd start focussing on getting that fish to live on the shrimp and fatten it up into a healthy specimen, or place it into a tank already filled with growing/thriving SPS.

By putting it into a 34g tank with 6 other fish, you're already cramping it which causes even more stress.

[arking_mark]

I'm not switching it to polyps. I'm looking to ensure it gets the nutrition it needs for long term success. It's my understanding that adult brine shrimp from LFS are not a complete diet. I believe my research on the content of polyps indicates that enriched brine shrimp should be close to a complete diet for the OSF.

 

With regards to the 6 other fish causing stress. The Red Spot Cardinals are the equivalent to fresh water neons. Five of them together is equal to one fish and they are completely non-aggressive.

[arking_mark]

Day 3:  Continued success!

 

Yesterday, I settled on mixing live brine shrimp with Nouri Polyp and Ova and letting it sit for an hour to allow the brine shrimp to gut load with the other food (if it can even gut load this stuff). 

 

Does anyone know if adult brine shrimp can gut load this stuff?

 

I will be buying some Selcon and frozen enriched brine shrimp today or tomorrow.

 

There were 4 feedings...she eats like a champ and samples the non-live contents of the feed.

 

Not sure the value of keeping this thread going as there is no weaning going on other than increasing the variety of food that she eats.  If the fish does not survive, it not due to eating.  I have a QT ready to go if she needs treatment.  As with all new additions to a tank, I don't feel confident of survival until about 6 weeks.

 

Any other feeding advice from the WAMAS community?  These fish are similar to other Obligate Corallivores like butterfly fish.

[WheresTheReef]

Glad this is going well so far. Have you considered spirulina powder for the brine shrimp?

[arking_mark]

I have not considered adding spirulina.  I am hoping to switch to an enriched frozen such as http://www.hikariusa.com/diets/spirulina-brine-shrimp/and/or look to gut-loading baby brine shrimp.  I don't want to set up for adult brine shrimp.

[arking_mark]

Quick one more quick note.  With todays feedings (2 so-far) the OSF is now eating the Ova and/or small peices of the Panta Nouri Polyp.  Now just to switch over to frozen enriched brine shrimp and we are good to go.  I'll look to add the frozed brine shrimp next week...

[Pants]

Based on my experience weaning baby cardinal fish off baby brine and onto food with healthy PUFA profiles, I'd suggest always mixing the baby brine with whatever food you are transitioning to. Also soaking the baby brine in selcon was sufficient to prevent PUFA deficiency related deaths. I'd also focus on maintaining a diverse set of foods rather than aiming just for enriched frozen brine. 

[rtelles]

Wondering if keeping OSF's in captivity will be similar to the trajectory of the copperband in the long run, in that it will be entirely dependent on the collection method and health of the individual specimen upon sale (assuming the buyer has the correct setup). Both have obligatory appetites in the wild, both are from the indo-pacific, and both have been historically difficult to wean onto prepared foods. Neither are generally well-cared for during collection, with their issues exacerbated by not having the correct foods from the time they're caught until they're sold to the final buyer, which places the burden on the buyer to more or less rescue the fish from starvation almost immediately. Both have been kept by advanced aquarists who have written about them extensively (Paul B and Pedersen, respectively). And many, many more individuals will die in captivity than survive for a year or more. Looks like you got a well-cared for, healthy individual, which I'd guess is 90% of the battle with these. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by rtelles

[arking_mark]

Thanks Pants!

 

As you suggested and I suspected, mixing target foods with the adult brine seems to be working. Is there an amount of time to let the live brine 'absorb' the foods?

 

Assuming the OSF will transition to a varied diet, my plan was to come up with a simple mix of frozen and pellet with some live thrown in from time to time. Base on feedback received here and some additional research I think some combination of Frozen spirulina enriched brine shrimp, Nutrimar Ova, and Nouri polyp would be perfect. Soaked in Selcon...even better.

[Pants]

I used to do about 30 minutes (though I wasn't strict about it). It was extremely dense though, so that clouds of the stuff filled the whole feeding area. 

 

Gut loading adult brine should be a bit easier. You could even check under a microscope if their little bellies are full.

[arking_mark]

rtelles-

 

I only have a sample size of 4 to talk from, but I suspect you may be right. However, I feel 3/4 had potential to be successful.

 

1st - 4" specimen that lived 5-6 weeks. Weaning never took off and I believe it died from a combo of starvation and velvet. My plan did not survive first contact. Had I had more experience or better guides, I think there could have been a chance for success.

 

2nd - 2.5" specimen that was weaned to Nouri Polyp. It was paper thin, and probably moved to soon and never acclimated. Should have let it fattened up before trying to re-home.

 

3rd - 2.5". DOA. No clue why.

 

4th - 1.5" apparently already weaned and eating live brine and maybe more. From same place as the DOA. This time, I felt properly prepared...with many foods, live coral, and techniques to try. I would love to put together a protocol...but can't because nothing I did lead to it being weaned.

[arking_mark]

Just a quick update.  She continues to eat like a champ and while never thin, now has a nice full looking belly.  I am going to reduce the heavy feedings to lighter ones.  I'll still try to feed around 4 times a day, but will eventually reduce to 2-3 as my schedule better allows.

 

Would like thoughts on the feed mix I am trying to transitioning her to:  Hikari Spirulina Brine Shrimp, Nutramar Ova, and Panta Nouri Polyp soaked in Selcon.  I will throw in baby brine shrimp from time to time.

 

I currently have her eating:  live adult brine shrimp mixed with Ova and Nouri polyp.  I let the brine shrimp sit in the mix ~1 hr before feedings.  She voraciously eats the brine shrimp and to a lesser extent the Ova.  The polyp get sampled some times.  I will be adding selcon to this mix soon.

Edited March 28, 2017 by arking_mark

[PupChow]

First the redspot cardinals, now the orange spotted filefish, you are on a roll with the hard-to-keep fish!  Following and wishing you success.

[arking_mark]

1st batch of Red Spot Cardinals are doing great. The 2nd batch of 5 not so much...2 DOA, 1 dead overnight, but the last 2 are doing great. Won't add those to the DT for about a month.

[s2nhle]

Wow, awesome. thank you for keeping us update.

[arking_mark]

One week in.  Everything continues to be good. 

 

Had a hiccup with one of my pumps not working properly and got a 2 degree spike in water temp 80-->82.  Repaired the pump and ordered a replacement.  These RSM 130D pumps have been giving me issues restarting so it's time to replace.  Interesting enough, the replacement is a single larger pump!  So if everything fits, I will keep one of the originals and the new one for more circulation and water motion.  My gut tells me this won't work due to the how the built-in all-in-one works. 

[zygote2k]

I've done the single pump replacement and it comes with a block-off plug for the other hole. Seems to work just fine and still going strong 2 years later.