mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Please take a moment to mourn my tank. It died so young.... ....did a 5 gallon change bc that's all I could manage with my rodi for now. Making water now. Will change out as much as possible in the morning.... moved some of my corals into this small 5 gallon tank with 0 nitrate. I've basically been doing constant water changes on that tank just from coral acclimation this last week. New rodi system will be here tomorrow... currently my rodi is 23 tds. Better than tap I guess. I noticed my sps getting irritated about a week and a half ago. Thought it was alk and salinity. Fixed those. By then the damage was much worse. Couldn't figure out what it was. Thought I tested everything.... just got a red brittle star too... hope it lives. Can't believe my inverts are alive. None of the fish are dead either. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 didn't you just set up your tank less than 3 months ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 What is going on with it? Do you know or have ideas what is happening to require so many water changes? What I think our resident "human sandpaper" is saying is that your tank is still relatively young and a young tank is fragile and so are new reefkeepers. He advocates taking it very slowly in a new reef and waiting many months before additions of anything. He isn't wrong. Drastic changes are seldom good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 didn't you just set up your tank less than 3 months ago?5 months ago Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Please take a moment to mourn my tank. It died so young.... So sorry. Dissect what you can from the experience, learn from it and move forward. Crashes can be tough. Even more so when you've had a tank for a long time and have a lot of time (and money) invested in it. ....did a 5 gallon change bc that's all I could manage with my rodi for now. Making water now. Will change out as much as possible in the morning.... moved some of my corals into this small 5 gallon tank with 0 nitrate. I've basically been doing constant water changes on that tank just from coral acclimation this last week. New rodi system will be here tomorrow... currently my rodi is 23 tds. Better than tap I guess. I noticed my sps getting irritated about a week and a half ago. Thought it was alk and salinity. Fixed those. By then the damage was much worse. Couldn't figure out what it was. Thought I tested everything.... just got a red brittle star too... hope it lives. Can't believe my inverts are alive. None of the fish are dead either. Some corals are more sensitive than others. What corals died and when did you get them? Were they fresh cut or healed (encrusted) frags? Were they SPS, LPS or soft corals? In my experience, when SPS tissue starts to die off and peel away, the coral is probably lost unless you frag it across some good tissue or do something to treat the area between the good and the bad. If you started with stuff better suited for a more experienced aquarist, you should proably consider backing off a little and aiming for something simpler and less demanding. Hone your skills and understanding, then advance. Your high nitrate levels indicate a couple of possibilities: 1) Your tank was not mature enough and did not have a well-developed biological filter yet. 2) Your husbandry techniques (feeding, water changes, cleaning) are not yet in good shape. If you had some large scale die-off (uncured rock with decaying organics on it, for example or a large fish that died and was lost in the tank) recently, it's possible that could have played a part in the high nitrates. When RO/DI units start pushing out non-zero TDS, the DI resin is releasing pollutants (ions that are weakly bound to the resin) back into the water. This means that what's coming out could be worse than what's going in. Don't assume that non-zero TDS water is still better than what's coming out of the tap. From this article by Randy Holmes-Farley: "... when a DI resin becomes depleted, that does not simply mean that the water passes through just as it came from the RO effluent. It may actually be much worse from an aquarist’s perspective. The reason for this is that while the DI resin is functioning properly, all ions will be caught. But when it is depleted, not only the new ions are coming through and might show up in the product water, but so are all the ions that ever got into the DI resin in the first place. The total concentration of ions coming out of the exhausted DI resin will not be raised as compared to the RO's effluent, but which ions are released may be very different. "... some ions will show a greater preference for attachment to the resin than will others. When the resins are not depleted, it does not matter what the ions’ affinity is, as all are bound. But in a depleted scenario, when there are more ions than ion binding sites, those with a higher affinity for the resin will be retained, and those with a lower affinity will be released. It turns out that silicate is found at the lower end of affinity for anion resins. Consequently, if the DI resin has been collecting silicate for a long period and is then depleted, a large burst of silicate may be released. "Perhaps even more of a concern is ammonia. In a system with chloramine in the tap water, the DI resin will serve the important function of removing much of the ammonia produced by the chloramine breakdown. Ammonia has a poorer affinity for many cation-binding resins than do many other cations (e.g., calcium or magnesium). Consequently, when the DI resin first becomes depleted, a big release of ammonia from and through the DI resin is likely. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 What is going on with it? Do you know or have ideas what is happening to require so many water changes? What I think our resident "human sandpaper" is saying is that your tank is still relatively young and a young tank is fragile and so are new reefkeepers. He advocates taking it very slowly in a new reef and waiting many months before additions of anything. He isn't wrong. Drastic changes are seldom good ones. Reduced the photo period to 8 hrs and reduced the intensity to acclimate new corals. I'm assuming algae has been dying off so much that it caused a nitrate spike. One month ago my nitrate tested 5. That was before the change in photoperiod. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 So sorry. Dissect what you can from the experience, learn from it and move forward. Crashes can be tough. Even more so when you've had a tank for a long time and have a lot of time (and money) invested in it. Some corals are more sensitive than others. What corals died and when did you get them? Were they fresh cut or healed (encrusted) frags? Were they SPS, LPS or soft corals? In my experience, when SPS tissue starts to die off and peel away, the coral is probably lost unless you frag it across some good tissue or do something to treat the area between the good and the bad. If you started with stuff better suited for a more experienced aquarist, you should proably consider backing off a little and aiming for something simpler and less demanding. Hone your skills and understanding, then advance. Your high nitrate levels indicate a couple of possibilities: 1) Your tank was not mature enough and did not have a well-developed biological filter yet. 2) Your husbandry techniques (feeding, water changes, cleaning) are not yet in good shape. If you had some large scale die-off (uncured rock with decaying organics on it, for example or a large fish that died and was lost in the tank) recently, it's possible that could have played a part in the high nitrates. When RO/DI units start pushing out non-zero TDS, the DI resin is releasing pollutants (ions that are weakly bound to the resin) back into the water. This means that what's coming out could be worse than what's going in. Don't assume that non-zero TDS water is still better than what's coming out of the tap. From this article by Randy Holmes-Farley: "... when a DI resin becomes depleted, that does not simply mean that the water passes through just as it came from the RO effluent. It may actually be much worse from an aquarist’s perspective. The reason for this is that while the DI resin is functioning properly, all ions will be caught. But when it is depleted, not only the new ions are coming through and might show up in the product water, but so are all the ions that ever got into the DI resin in the first place. The total concentration of ions coming out of the exhausted DI resin will not be raised as compared to the RO's effluent, but which ions are released may be very different. "... some ions will show a greater preference for attachment to the resin than will others. When the resins are not depleted, it does not matter what the ions’ affinity is, as all are bound. But in a depleted scenario, when there are more ions than ion binding sites, those with a higher affinity for the resin will be retained, and those with a lower affinity will be released. It turns out that silicate is found at the lower end of affinity for anion resins. Consequently, if the DI resin has been collecting silicate for a long period and is then depleted, a large burst of silicate may be released. "Perhaps even more of a concern is ammonia. In a system with chloramine in the tap water, the DI resin will serve the important function of removing much of the ammonia produced by the chloramine breakdown. Ammonia has a poorer affinity for many cation-binding resins than do many other cations (e.g., calcium or magnesium). Consequently, when the DI resin first becomes depleted, a big release of ammonia from and through the DI resin is likely. " Interesting... so the Hollywood stunner chalice is losing flesh. Two cheap birdsnests. Many new frags I got died including another birdsnest. Some bleached and are in the five gallon and I'm not sure if they are alive. No soft corals have died. Only the chalice and sps. Torch, bubble coral, and frogspawn are okay. Cleaner shrimp is also okay surprisingly. Fish are fine(a pair of clowns and a sixline) . Snails and hermits good. I fed the tank pretty hard before I kicked my maintenance and feeding into shape. Same time I reduced the photo period. I only have 3 small/ young fish and a bunch of inverts. There has never been a biological filtration problem before. Nitrate was on a gradual downward trend. Ammonia hasnt registered. No nitrite. Should probably test now. I'll test my rodi for ammonia too. No large organism has died. All fish accounted for. All inverts too. New red brittle star.. think it'll live? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Softies are pretty resilient and some do better in "dirty" tanks. In my experience, my birdnest corals were often my "canary" corals and were the first to suffer if water parameters were not right. Don't worry if you lose the Hollywood Stunner. If you got it from one of our meetings, then it's likely from my tank. It's a fast grower and had actually started encrusting the glass before I took a PVC pipe to it and started lopping off large pieces to bring it back under control. If you lose it, I'll give you another at the next meeting. Just send me a PM reminder. In the mean time, in an attempt to save the frag that you have, break off the dead/dying part, making sure to cut back into a bit of the good flesh. Test your salinity and your alkalinity and post results. Calcium, too, if you have it. Also, what test kits are you using? Is your refractometer calibrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 Softies are pretty resilient and some do better in "dirty" tanks. In my experience, my birdnest corals were often my "canary" corals and were the first to suffer if water parameters were not right. Don't worry if you lose the Hollywood Stunner. If you got it from one of our meetings, then it's likely from my tank. It's a fast grower and had actually started encrusting the glass before I took a PVC pipe to it and started lopping off large pieces to bring it back under control. If you lose it, I'll give you another at the next meeting. Just send me a PM reminder. In the mean time, in an attempt to save the frag that you have, break off the dead/dying part, making sure to cut back into a bit of the good flesh. Test your salinity and your alkalinity and post results. Calcium, too, if you have it. Also, what test kits are you using? Is your refractometer calibrated? Thank you that's so nice the stunner is one of my favorite pieces. I got a 4" disc for $5 at the fall frag swap. Chalices are supposed to be more expensive though? Salinity is 1.025 and the hydrometer is calibrated. Alk and calcium are from Red Sea test kit(not expired/brand new) calcium 460 and alk 11.2 two days ago. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 50% water changes can help a lot with Kalk overdoses, high ammonia and rising 'trates but match temp, salinity and possibly other parms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 There was a time not so long ago when just about any chalice was expensive. Hollywood Stunner is so prolific (imho) that it should be priced low. Keep an eye on yours and, should you lose it, hit me up. What Red Sea kits? Red Sea Pro or the regular Red Sea test kits? I've never trusted their regular kits since I got a bunch of bad readings from them years ago. Your alk is a bit on the high side. You said "hydrometer" - did you mean that or refractometer? Hydrometers are notorious for inaccuracy (for several reasons). How was it calibrated? Sent from my phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 There was a time not so long ago when just about any chalice was expensive. Hollywood Stunner is so prolific (imho) that it should be priced low. Keep an eye on yours and, should you lose it, hit me up. What Red Sea kits? Red Sea Pro or the regular Red Sea test kits? I've never trusted their regular kits since I got a bunch of bad readings from them years ago. Your alk is a bit on the high side. You said "hydrometer" - did you mean that or refractometer? Hydrometers are notorious for inaccuracy (for several reasons). How was it calibrated? Sent from my phone I really appreciate it It's the Red Sea pro reef foundation test kit. And I said hydrometer but meant refractometer. No moving bar. Just like a telescope. Calibrated with rodi water and tightening of a screw. Rodi reads 0 always. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khh27 February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 I really appreciate it It's the Red Sea pro reef foundation test kit. And I said hydrometer but meant refractometer. No moving bar. Just like a telescope. Calibrated with rodi water and tightening of a screw. Rodi reads 0 always. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That's your problem you never calibrate to 0 with rodi you calibrate with calibration sloution. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 That's your problem you never calibrate to 0 with rodi you calibrate with calibration sloution. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Why? How does it affect my readings? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khh27 February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 (edited) Why? How does it affect my readings? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Idk I've always been told not to but researching it just now I have mixed feedback. Looks like as long as what you used to dispense the rodi have never seen saltwater your good. Some say it can be a few pts off Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Edited February 23, 2017 by khh27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 23, 2017 Author Share February 23, 2017 (edited) Idk I've always been told not to but researching it just now I have mixed feedback. Looks like as long as what you used to dispense the rodi have never seen saltwater your good. Some say it can be a few pts off Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Just got calibration fluid with a used setup I bought. Guess I'll try that out when I get home. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited February 23, 2017 by mari.harutunian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finaddict February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Where is the best place to get the calibration fluid? I see the prices vary a lot and I need a small bottle. I did not see it at Centerville Aquarium last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 There are very few refractometers in this hobby that can/should be calibrated with RO/DI. One that I'm aware of is made by DD H20 . The reason for this is that most of the refractometers that we use in this hobby are made to measure brine (NaCl + water) salinity, not the complex soup of ions that make up seawater. The end result is that the printed scale is in a slightly different position in a brine refractometer versus one made specifically for measuring marine salt water. Most of us own brine refractometers and the way that we account for the difference is to calibrate around our target salinity using calibration fluid. This helps us to visualize when our water is on- or off-target. If you calibrate a brine refractometer with RO/DI, you can be off as much as 1.5 ppt in your reading when checking your tank water. You need to make sure that the calibration fluid that you have, though, is specifically for refractometers. If it was made for conductivity meters, it likely won't be a good reference for a refractometer. For example, I had some calibration fluid from Pinpoint Marine that was made for their salinity (conductivity) meter. The label showed "53 mS/cm = 1.0264 sg = 35 ppt" - which was deceiving in a way. I'm sure that it was 53 mS/cm on the conductivity meter, but when you measured the refractive index, it correlated to 40 ppt. If I'd used that to calibrate my refractometer, my tank would have been at 40 ppt rather than my 35 ppt target. Lesson: Make sure that you're using the calibration fluid correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Where is the best place to get the calibration fluid? I see the prices vary a lot and I need a small bottle. I did not see it at Centerville Aquarium last w Bulk Reef Supply carries it. Amazon, too. BRS is cheaper ($7), but for a one-off, you'll incur shipping charges. Amazon charges $13 but shipping is zero if you have Amazon Prime. From time to time, I've actually toyed with the idea of making a batch and bottling refractometer calibration fluid for sale ($5/bottle?) at one of our meetings just because I know that it's important to have on hand and because a lot of us don't seem to know about it or have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roca135790 February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Sorry to hear about you tank. Hopefully it recovers and you get to learn a lot more about the hobby from the experience. I know I did from losing my 20 Long when I moved from PA to MD. Poor packing for the trip and a bad refractometor was the fault for that. Likewise also appreciate how helpful the WAMAS community is. Also, pretty sure BRS has free ground shipping for all items aside frozen merchandise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRon February 23, 2017 Share February 23, 2017 Bulk Reef Supply carries it. Amazon, too. BRS is cheaper ($7), but for a one-off, you'll incur shipping charges. Amazon charges $13 but shipping is zero if you have Amazon Prime. From time to time, I've actually toyed with the idea of making a batch and bottling refractometer calibration fluid for sale ($5/bottle?) at one of our meetings just because I know that it's important to have on hand and because a lot of us don't seem to know about it or have it. Also available at saltwateraquarium.com with free shipping. https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/seawater-35-ppt-refractometer-salinity-calibration-solution-60-ml-aquacraft/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 24, 2017 Author Share February 24, 2017 The ammonia in my RODI.............. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 24, 2017 Author Share February 24, 2017 Nitrates in the display..... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mari.harutunian February 24, 2017 Author Share February 24, 2017 It will take 7 hrs for the new rodi to finish flushing... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 24, 2017 Share February 24, 2017 Nitrates are high but ammonia? Not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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