Mystery Need Help!

[Myers71]

Ok here is my issue. I have a 55g set up as a fowlr which has been up and running for about two years now. I have a pair of black and white ocellaris (have had for year and a half) and a lawnmower blenny (4 months). In addition I have various snails, a hermit or two and a goodly size worm population. I have been trying to add a dwarf angel for the past 4 or 5 months. I have had no luck. Typically they pass within a day or two of being added to my display. I have tried 3 flames (2 from live aquaria), two coral beauties and one ebili. Some I quarantined and some I did not (more so on the last few). Yesterday I tried 2 pajama cardinals to see if they would react the same. I lost both of them less than 24 hours after introducing (didn't qt).

 

They have all reacted the same way. Seem ok at first but after say 6 - 8 hours respiration increases significantly, they start hanging on the bottom or have issues swimming and by the next day are dead.

 

Here are my parameters (API kit - I know not anyone's fav) today and setup:

 

Temp 78.6

Ph 7.8 is low but we are on well and have acidic water treated with calcium carbonate culligan

Sal 1.024 on refractometer

Amm <.25 ppm

Trite 0

Trate 0

Copper 0

RO/DI water at 001 ppm on TDS meter

 

I have an aqueon peo flex sump and run a coralife 65 skimmer (it works for me so far). I do run socks.

 

My clowns and blenny have had no issues. The clowns have been showing spawning behavior for some time, no eggs yet. The blenny is fat and happy and doing a great job of cleaning up algae.

 

What could I be missing. I am completely stumped. I had water tested at the LFS and they came up with same results as I did.

 

Help!!

[Rob A]

I only recently discovered that some fish sellers hold the fish in tanks with low salinity. it possibly an acclimation issue? Going from a low salinity to normal salinity too fast?

[Coral Hind]

Are you drip acclimating them slowly? Are you dosing copper during the QT process? Are you checking the SG of the water they came in to compare to yours? Is your refractometer calibrated? Any aggression from the clowns or blenny?

[monkiboy]

sorry to hear about your losses. in addition to the above questions, were the clowns and blenny prophylactically treated prior to introduction into the tank? were the clownfish wild-caught? do the recent additions that had died show any visible symptoms outside of their respiration rate increasing?

[Myers71]

I only recently discovered that some fish sellers hold the fish in tanks with low salinity. it possibly an acclimation issue? Going from a low salinity to normal salinity too fast?

Yeah I have figured that out as well and have been thinking that too. I have acclimated both by drip acclimating and bag acclimating. Typically at least an hour up to two.

[Myers71]

Are you drip acclimating them slowly? Are you dosing copper during the QT process? Are you checking the SG of the water they came in to compare to yours? Is your refractometer calibrated? Any aggression from the clowns or blenny?

Salinity is definitely low from LFS and online. I have measured 1.018 from live aquaria and that seems to jive with what I have found online. With LA I followed their acclimation process exactly to the minute. Even called them to ask about the low salinity in their shipping bags.

 

I have not calibrated the meter recently. I have not had it too long but will check it to make sure.

 

No aggression whatsoever that I have seen except against the clowns by one of the angels I tried.

 

This is driving me crazy. I don't want to keep killing fish!

[Myers71]

sorry to hear about your losses. in addition to the above questions, were the clowns and blenny prophylactically treated prior to introduction into the tank? were the clownfish wild-caught? do the recent additions that had died show any visible symptoms outside of their respiration rate increasing?

Thanks everyone for the replies by the way.

 

I did treat the clowns with prazipro. Nothing for the blenny. He was easy, eating right off the bat in qt. moved him after 3 weeks. I don't know if the clowns were wild or tank raised but they were from congressional. I would guess tank bred.

 

No other signs except maybe swimming difficulty but I figured that was a side effect of whatever the main cause is.

[Coral Hind]

You didn't answer if you QT'ed the angels in copper or not.

 

How did the fish look when they died? Any red streaks in the fins to indicate ammonia or low O2 exchange? Was the mouth normal or wide open? Because the fish died so fast I doubt it is a pathogen in your tank that is doing it. More like shock from a large shift in pH, salinity, or low O2. What time of day did you test the pH? pH drifts up during the day and drops at night depending on your system. If you have 7.8 during the day then it could be dropping to the low 7's at night. Have you checked your alk levels? Post up a picture of your tank if you can and get your alk and pH levels adjusted.

[Myers71]

You didn't answer if you QT'ed the angels in copper or not.How did the fish look when they died? Any red streaks in the fins to indicate ammonia or low O2 exchange? Was the mouth normal or wide open? Because the fish died so fast I doubt it is a pathogen in your tank that is doing it. More like shock from a large shift in pH, salinity, or low O2. What time of day did you test the pH? pH drifts up during the day and drops at night depending on your system. If you have 7.8 during the day then it could be dropping to the low 7's at night. Have you checked your alk levels? Post up a picture of your tank if you can and get your alk and pH levels adjusted.

For the angels i did qt I did not use copper. I didn't want to unless I felt there was a need (I didn't but obviously could have been wrong). Fish looked normal when they died. I can't say about the red streaks, didn't know to look for that. Mouths were open on the cardinals. The last one yesterday morning was really struggling to breath, working hard. I netted it and moved it to my qt (10g with half mature water and half fresh mix) but it was too late.

 

I don't think it's a pathogen either as I see no impact to my current residents. I thought O2 but I am running a sump with skimmer and have two koralias in the dt with lots of surface agitation and open top. Salinity has been pretty steady at 1.024 assuming that's correct. Ammonia has not moved for quite a while. I do have sailfert kits for ph and ammonia coming to see if I can get better readings. I will start logging more frequent tests and see what I come up with. I don't measure alk.

 

I will post pics when I can and more test results. Out at kids swim meet now.

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Rob A]

I know you said your pH is basically normal but I was chatting with the wife about your issue and she reminded me of an issue we she had at work in a freshwater tank she keeps there. Several fish lived in the tank and were fine but ANY new addition would die within a day or so. Very odd since FW is like the easiest thing there is. We finally tested for everything (typical saltwater tests) one day and the pH was below 6. So somehow the fish that had been in there since the set up had gotten used to it but new fish couldn't. We solved that problem by adding a calcium gravel substrate in place of the decorative colored gravel and have added several new fish and haven't had any more problems. 

I know you said you have a RO/DI but I wonder if something is getting through. I just don't know what. Something from the water softener? Some sord of metal from the well? Radon? Sulfer? 

[Myers71]

I know you said your pH is basically normal but I was chatting with the wife about your issue and she reminded me of an issue we she had at work in a freshwater tank she keeps there. Several fish lived in the tank and were fine but ANY new addition would die within a day or so. Very odd since FW is like the easiest thing there is. We finally tested for everything (typical saltwater tests) one day and the pH was below 6. So somehow the fish that had been in there since the set up had gotten used to it but new fish couldn't. We solved that problem by adding a calcium gravel substrate in place of the decorative colored gravel and have added several new fish and haven't had any more problems. 

I know you said you have a RO/DI but I wonder if something is getting through. I just don't know what. Something from the water softener? Some sord of metal from the well? Radon? Sulfer?

 

Could be. That was a thought I got from one of the guys at King of Corals. I just wish I could figure out what it is! Just ordered a sailfert alk kit too. Love Amazon btw. Guess I will be doing lots of testing.

[Myers71]

You didn't answer if you QT'ed the angels in copper or not.

 

How did the fish look when they died? Any red streaks in the fins to indicate ammonia or low O2 exchange? Was the mouth normal or wide open? Because the fish died so fast I doubt it is a pathogen in your tank that is doing it. More like shock from a large shift in pH, salinity, or low O2. What time of day did you test the pH? pH drifts up during the day and drops at night depending on your system. If you have 7.8 during the day then it could be dropping to the low 7's at night. Have you checked your alk levels? Post up a picture of your tank if you can and get your alk and pH levels adjusted.

 

I posted a few pics in a public gallery.  If there is a better way let me know, still new to actually participating in these forums.

[YHSublime]

I posted a few pics in a public gallery.  If there is a better way let me know, still new to actually participating in these forums.

 

Upload them in Photobucket (or an img hosting site of your choice) and then use the <img> link copied into your text when you post in the forums here. Cheers.

[Myers71]

Ok trying Photobucket, here are some pics.

 

 

 

 

Ebili that didn't make it:

[Myers71]

Here is my pair of clowns.

 

And my suspect worm after removal, oenone fulgida maybe?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Coral Hind

[AlanM]

Wow, for a two year old tank it looks brand new. If you hadn't said it was two years old I would have suggested that you couldn't handle the bio load because it wasn't cycled yet. How do your rocks have no algae or anything on them?

[surf&turf]

I'm wondering with the minimal rock work, the blenny see's this as his territory and is defending it. The angels would have tried to occupy the same space, thus the conflict. 

[Coral Hind]

I would think the blenny would nip at the angel but it wouldn't be able to kill it. After a couple of hits the angel would just stay up and away from the rocks. I'm still thinking it is a water parameter that is killing the new fish. The clowns and the blenny are very hardy fish and are able to handle the pH which is lower than it should be.

 

Myers71 - How often do you do water changes and how much at a time? Do you dose the tank with any buffer or other additives? Give some details on your maintenance routine.

[davelin315]

If you keep inverts, they would die first before the fish from issues with low pH and copper.

 

Have you tested for stray current in the tank? If you have electricity running through it, that is a more likely cause of death for an angel. No pathogens kill that quickly without signs of infection and the presence of other animals rules out some of the questions surrounding water quality. That said, could be something in the water that the other animals have become accustomed to.

[dante411x]

That quickly... I'd try to get a PH meter and test your PH with something other than an ATI kit. I'd either assume it's ammonia buildup in the water from the shipping bag or a huge PH swing that fish can't adjust to. Have you tried getting a fish from a local store and drip acclimating it and putting in your tank? (I wouldn't acclimate for longer than 30 min, ever by the way). I know this method foregoes QT, but you seem to have a much more immediate problem now

[dante411x]

There is alot of stress and much higher chance of your fish dying when bought online. That's why I suggest LFS, just to see if a fish that's only in a bag for 30 min - 1 hour of transport and then 30 min of acclimation will survive.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/5/aafeature

 

Not a bad read 

[Myers71]

Wow, for a two year old tank it looks brand new. If you hadn't said it was two years old I would have suggested that you couldn't handle the bio load because it wasn't cycled yet. How do your rocks have no algae or anything on them?

I will take that as a compliment:). I have treated for algae though not recently ( with the API algaefix 4 months ago) as I was fighting cyano for a while. Main reason I got the blenny. I also clean the front and side glass every other day or so. I do have growth on the back glass and some on the rocks.

 

I don't think bio load as I have not seen ammonia spike. I also wouldn't think it would be that quick.

[Myers71]

I would think the blenny would nip at the angel but it wouldn't be able to kill it. After a couple of hits the angel would just stay up and away from the rocks. I'm still thinking it is a water parameter that is killing the new fish. The clowns and the blenny are very hardy fish and are able to handle the pH which is lower than it should be.Myers71 - How often do you do water changes and how much at a time? Do you dose the tank with any buffer or other additives? Give some details on your maintenance routine.

I have seen no signs of aggression from anyone. The blenny and clowns were all hanging together on one of my powerheads just last night nipping at the algae there. Within cm of each other. They are all really chill fish.

 

I shoot typically do 5g water changes once a week and swap out filter socks. I use instant ocean.

I don't dose anything except iodine once in a while. Unless my whole house water neutralizer counts. It runs calcium carbonate but it is before the ro/di unit.

 

I have been testing several times a day and coming up with the following.

 

Temp: 78 - 80

Salinity: 1.023 (just calibrated my refractometer with cal fluid. I was reading 1.024 calibrating with ro/di)

Ph: 7.8 in the morning 8.0 - 8.2 at night but still waiting on the sailfert kit to confirm coming tomorrow

Kh: 7

Am: 0 to .125 also getting sailfert kit

Nitrate: 0

Nitrite: 0

Copper: 0 have never dosed copper in dt

Phosphate: <.25

[Myers71]

If you keep inverts, they would die first before the fish from issues with low pH and copper.

Have you tested for stray current in the tank? If you have electricity running through it, that is a more likely cause of death for an angel. No pathogens kill that quickly without signs of infection and the presence of other animals rules out some of the questions surrounding water quality. That said, could be something in the water that the other animals have become accustomed to.

I have not. I will try that next. I agree i feel I have something toxic in the tank that current livestock is acclimated to.

[Myers71]

That quickly... I'd try to get a PH meter and test your PH with something other than an ATI kit. I'd either assume it's ammonia buildup in the water from the shipping bag or a huge PH swing that fish can't adjust to. Have you tried getting a fish from a local store and drip acclimating it and putting in your tank? (I wouldn't acclimate for longer than 30 min, ever by the way). I know this method foregoes QT, but you seem to have a much more immediate problem now

I am waiting on a sailfert ph test kit coming tomorrow. My last attempt was with 2 pajama cardinals from LFS, acclimated over 45 min then introduced into my dt. Same result. I have forgone the qt for the last few thinking the same thing you are.