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how long should this rock take?


treesprite

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I put all my yukky mostly dried up liverock into a small tank to cycle it about 3 days ago. I'm wondering how long it might take. Of course there are lots of somewhat newly dead things in it. There is a powerhead in there with it.

 

The end of the first day, the water was cloudy and extremely smelly... obviously ammonia. I did a 1/3rd water change that night with water from DT. I couldn't take the smell in this apartment, so I put in some ammonia detox stuff; I realize the detox stuff could somehow affect or interfere with the cycling, but I'm not sure how.  The next day (yesterday), I did about a 50% water change with water from DT. Tonight the water is clear and does not stink. I have no ammonia test kit, but tested nitrite and it was zero. Too soon to bother testing for nitrate. I did not change any water tonight.

 

I did not bother to put a skimmer on the curing tank - is there any need for it?

 

Does temperature affect the process? I put a cover over the rock tank because of the smell and because the cat kept trying to get into it (but I left a tiny opening for gas exchange), so the water is really warm.

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The longer you let it sit the better. Once you don't have any smells anymore, add some of your live rock to the tub and let that sit for another week then add some biomass to the tub and let it cycle and you should be semi good.

When I seeded my dry liverock I just let it sit for 3 months.

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Ammonia is very toxic and the levels will still be too high even when you can't smell it. Ammonia test kits are one of the cheaper kits. Get one and test. I have found that the bacteria supplement from API does seem speed up the cycle. I used it on a new tanka dn it cycled in 3 weeks,

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(edited)

Curing rock is like aging fine wine.

 

Some art, a lot of science, but the longer the age the better. 

 

If you want it faster then add some DT's bacteria (like a bit of sand or some small rocks or shells). 

Edited by jaddc
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Once you don't have any smells anymore, add some of your live rock to the tub and let that sit for another week then add some biomass to the tub and let it cycle and you should be semi good.

This rock IS my liverock from my DT. I have some in my sump which I did not touch, but I don't want to use it for this purpose. I left one small liverock in the DT after cleaning the surface of it with a toothbrush and making sure nothing nasty was growing on it - this is enough to start seeding the cured rock. The new dry rock I bought already has little serpent stars living in it after just a couple weeks (from undersides of or crevices in corals). 

 

Ammonia is very toxic and the levels will still be too high even when you can't smell it. Ammonia test kits are one of the cheaper kits. Get one and test. I have found that the bacteria supplement from API does seem speed up the cycle. I used it on a new tanka dn it cycled in 3 weeks,

All an ammonia kit would tell me is either that there is no ammonia, or that the ammonia hasn't yet converted to nitrite. Nitrite is also highly toxic. Once the nitrite is zero, it means I'm just left with nitrate which I can take care of with export plus either adding bacteria or feeding bacteria already present (aka: dosing carbon). 

 

Right now there are no smells and test measures zero for nitrite. I have  both Sea Chem  Red Sea nitrite test kits.

 

I dose Biodigest and always told myself that if I ever needed to cure a vat of liverock, I'd use that. However for some reason, I don't feel like doing it right now. I also dose carbon in spurts, either vodka or vinegar, When I moved, I used 100% new water setting my system back up, added double dose of Biodigest at once, and had no cycle.

 

Oh, BTW, thank you for the responses - they are much appreciated.

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I would dose prime every two days. It will bind all ammonia and nitrite and nitrate and the bacteria still will process it. That way your super toxic levels of everything don't kill off all the bacteria that's trying to catch up. Done this way, water changes aren't necessary as often. I'd dose that every two days for a week, then do a 100% water change, let it sit another few days, another large water change and then see how long you can go without touching it with a pump in there.

 

No need for a skimmer.

 

May I ask why you took all your display rock and are curing it? Shouldn't it already be cured since it's your display rock?

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I would dose prime every two days. It will bind all ammonia and nitrite and nitrate and the bacteria still will process it. That way your super toxic levels of everything don't kill off all the bacteria that's trying to catch up. Done this way, water changes aren't necessary as often. I'd dose that every two days for a week, then do a 100% water change, let it sit another few days, another large water change and then see how long you can go without touching it with a pump in there.No need for a skimmer.May I ask why you took all your display rock and are curing it? Shouldn't it already be cured since it's your display rock?

Thanks for this suggestion. This about the Prime is exactly the sort of thing I wanted to know. I wasn't sure if adding something would interfere with the process.

 

I did this with the rocks from the DT (but not sump rock) because, 1. there was something stinging me (I think there were hydroids... Pretty sure at this point), which may also be part of the reasons for dead sps and zoas (lps not affected). And 2. There were a couple aptasias and after 15-16 years of never having it, i wasn't going to let it start. I feel bad about my micro serpent stars... I probably killed at least a couple hundred of them.

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I went to buy a bottle of Prime, and since the ammonia test was right there, I got that too. I really didn't need it..... the fact that the nitrite, which was showing nothing yesterday, is now showing almost as high as the chart goes, is the indicator that there was/is a high amount of ammonia which is already on the decline as it is breaking down to produce that rising nitrite level. When the nitrite stops rising, it will mean there is no longer excess ammonia in the water.  I do like the lovely green color of today's ammonia test sample, but it isn't worth the ten bucks I had to pay to buy the test kit.

 

At any rate, I put some Prime in the water.

 

Anyone have any feedback on what an appropriate salinity would be for this rock process? I will need to use all new water, rather than water from a DT water change, if I want to get a reasonably accurate nitrate reading when the cycle reaches that point. I don't think I need to be throwing away salt for this, so if I can keep the salinity level fairly low, that's what I want to do.

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you're not 'throwing away' salt. a cup or two extra to get it to 1.023 isn't going to break the bank. start keeping things in normal operating parameters and your rock will be that much better.

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It's not the money, it's the having to go buy the stuff and deal with the heavy box that I can't carry. Now that Aq. 1 is not in the area, I have to go to a place where the help has an issue with carrying to my car, which caused me to have to drive around the neighborhood 3 times during rush hour, as that is the only way to get back to the entrance when cars come up behind in the drive in front of the store. I don;t really want to buy salt there again just because of that, but there isn't anywhere else nearby to go.

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A couple days ago I did about 80% water change using DT water change water. I put Prime in as advised. Tonight, the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all at "undetectable" levels. Or is it possible that the Prime I put in there is throwing off my test results?

 

I'll  leave the water alone with no changing or additive for a couple days then test again. Hopefully anything the Prime may have done will no longer affect test results by then (if it ever was to begin with).

 

I am wondering if the rock had dead decaying things trapped in it from when I had the temp spikes several months ago, which would have been a contributor to some of the problems I was having (not having them anymore, since taking out the rocks).  That alone would be a good enough reason to kill the rock and cycle it back to useable.

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Prime shouldn't affect test results by any degree that matters to us. Products that "remove" a particular substance does so in a non-permanent way. You can google "chelation" if you want to dive deeper.

 

So Prime would stick to the ammonia and so reduce it so that it is less toxic to life, but the ammonia is still there in the water. Because the ammonia is bound to the Prime, bacteria does not convert it to nitrite and nitrate as fast. It still does, just much slower as the bacteria has to fight for the ammonia. The idea is that the conversion is slow enough to not foul the water.

 

And the chemistry of the test kits will still register the presence of ammonia -- because it is still there. If it is not there, then the bacteria have done their job.

 

One more thing, Prime and the like break down after 24-48 hours. So you can test in a few days to feel more confident that Prime is not effecting the results.

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Thanks.

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(edited)

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at undetectable levels. Phosphate is about 1.5 - 2.

 

I had not thought to test the phosphate before today, just thinking about the nitrogen cycle. The DT phosphate level was higher when the rock was in it, so I'm wondering if  the rock was leeching phosphate into the DT water. 

 

Will just tossing some Phosguard in with the rock do the trick? That's what I did about 20 minutes ago.

Edited by treesprite
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Phosguard doesn't remove phosphate, it just locks it away. Water changes are best. If you are in a rush, then you can acidify the water with vinegar to a ph of ~6. This will start to dissolve the outer layer of calcium carbonate and release any phosphate in the rock.

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Thanks for the response. I read this article, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/#10, which is contrary to what you are saying.

Phosguard doesn't remove phosphate, it just locks it away. Water changes are best. If you are in a rush, then you can acidify the water with vinegar to a ph of ~6. This will start to dissolve the outer layer of calcium carbonate and release any phosphate in the rock.

 

The article claims that raising the pH to an optimal of 8.4, will get phosphate out of the water by binding it to calcium carbonate precipitate in hard surfaces.  The article also explains that  low pH will  cause phosphate to get released into the water, therefore raising the water's phosphate level. It seems that the bound phosphate would not leech into the water unless the pH is too low for too long. I guess I should go test the pH in that rock container.

 

Phosguard doesn't remove phosphate, it just locks it away.

 

 

According to SeaChem, the phosphate binds to the Phosguard and is therefore removed when the Phosguard is removed. 

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(edited)

Thanks for the response. I read this article, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/#10, which is contrary to what you are saying.

 

 

The article claims that raising the pH to an optimal of 8.4, will get phosphate out of the water by binding it to calcium carbonate precipitate in hard surfaces. The article also explains that low pH will cause phosphate to get released into the water, therefore raising the water's phosphate level. It seems that the bound phosphate would not leech into the water unless the pH is too low for too long. I guess I should go test the pH in that rock container.

 

 

 

According to SeaChem, the phosphate binds to the Phosguard and is therefore removed when the Phosguard is removed.

A) the article is not contrary to my point. The "hard surfaces" you mention would be your rock. Which is what you would want to avoid, correct? If you release the phosphate to the water then you can get rid of it by water changes or phosguard.

B) with phosguard, my point is that you may have more phosphate than the product is meant to handle. I mean you are cycling Old rock. Some people use acid to get rid of phosphate. Since your rock is in a small chamber, fresh saltwater may be a better solution. But if it is easier for you to use phosguard than change water, then go for it.

Edited by jaddc
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 Rock water pH 7.8 and DT pH 8.1 (using a digital meter).  Interesting because the rock water came from a water change from the DT. I'm assuming it's possible that the difference is just due to the fact that the DT has had bright lights on all day and the rock water is just in ambient room light - I'll have to check my DT pH after the lights are out a few hours and see if there is still that much of a difference which would be due to whatever chemistry thing might cause it.

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Rock water pH 7.8 and DT pH 8.1 (using a digital meter).  Interesting because the rock water came from a water change from the DT. I'm assuming it's possible that the difference is just due to the fact that the DT has had bright lights on all day and the rock water is just in ambient room light - I'll have to check my DT pH after the lights are out a few hours and see if there is still that much of a difference which would be due to whatever chemistry thing might cause it.

Carbon dioxide dissolved in the rock water causing it to acidify is my guess.

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A) the article is not contrary to my point. The "hard surfaces" you mention would be your rock. Which is what you would want to avoid, correct? If you release the phosphate to the water then you can get rid of it by water changes or phosguard

 

Both things make sense to me, and I got your point right away. It's just that it seems like opposites can have the same result of lowering the phosphate level in the water.  I guess to someone in a hurry, it's a matter of which  requires the most work (i.e., water changes or dealing with media).   I think your stated method, while it seems it would be harder work, would in the long run be better, because using the other method will backfire and release all the pH back into the water if there is a future drop in pH. This is why we need information from other hobbyists and not just articles we find on the internet!

 

I'm itching to get my rock back in my tank. I wanted to do it the upcoming weekend until I saw the phosphate level yesterday. I can wait. I did all this work to get my tank in order, I don't want to screw it up down the road for having been too lazy or too impatient. Thanks for the advice - it will help my tank more in the long run.

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Both things make sense to me, and I got your point right away. It's just that it seems like opposites can have the same result of lowering the phosphate level in the water.  I guess to someone in a hurry, it's a matter of which  requires the most work (i.e., water changes or dealing with media).   I think your stated method, while it seems it would be harder work, would in the long run be better, because using the other method will backfire and release all the pH back into the water if there is a future drop in pH. This is why we need information from other hobbyists and not just articles we find on the internet!

 

I'm itching to get my rock back in my tank. I wanted to do it the upcoming weekend until I saw the phosphate level yesterday. I can wait. I did all this work to get my tank in order, I don't want to screw it up down the road for having been too lazy or too impatient. Thanks for the advice - it will help my tank more in the long run.

 

Patience is the key. Did you scrub the rock? That could speed things along. Otherwise, the longer you cure it, then less chance that undesirable effects will happen in the tank. Water changes would be the best way if you want the best cure. 

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I waited until the rock was mostly dried before scrubbing it, and scrubbed it very well. I used a combination of plyers, scrub brush, toothbrush, and rotary tool with wire brush attachment. There was nothing on the rock outer surfaces when I was done with it, nor inside any hole big enough to fit a toothbrush into it.  My hands and wrists really hurt through the next day even.

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It's not the money, it's the having to go buy the stuff and deal with the heavy box that I can't carry. Now that Aq. 1 is not in the area, I have to go to a place where the help has an issue with carrying to my car, which caused me to have to drive around the neighborhood 3 times during rush hour, as that is the only way to get back to the entrance when cars come up behind in the drive in front of the store. I don;t really want to buy salt there again just because of that, but there isn't anywhere else nearby to go.

forest, if you're still in wheaton I am only five-ten minutes from you. If you could use help, let me know.

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I had a bottle of pH down in my fish junk from when I had a FW tank, so I dumped some in with the rock rather than vinegar. I wonder what is in that stuff?

 

forest, if you're still in wheaton I am only five-ten minutes from you. If you could use help, let me know.

 

Thanks. I will let you know when I need to get some more.

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