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Lemon Chromis Breeding Thread


DaveS

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Here's a little thread to help share my latest reefing endeavor.  You all may recall that another member (Jan) had some Lemon Chromis that were laying eggs in her tank.  Well, in true WAMAS fashion, I ended up with these guys by way of YHSublime after she broke down her tank to move to FL.  

Here's a photo from LiveAquaria of these guys.

 
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They are really cool fish to have in a reef tank as they are colorful, lively but not agressive, and don't seem to kill each other until there is only 1 like other Chromis do.  By far one of my favorite small fish!

Well lucky for me, within a few months of being in my tank, they started laying eggs.  Like Jan, these guys found a nice acro colony and made a nest there.

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The problem with that nest is that the colony was on a rock and trying to catch the larvae after the hatch was a pain in my 210 gallon tank.

So with a little bit of patience and luck, I was able to "convince" them to adopt a tile instead of an acro.  

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It took a while for them to figure it out but they eventually did.

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One tidbit about Lemon Chromis, unlike clowns which have a single male and single female, these guys seem to breed in harems.  I have one male and two females.  The male gets one of the ladies to lay eggs one night and then the next night, the other female lays eggs.  I don't know what would happen if I had more than 2 females and if he would just keep rotating through the females every night.

Here is a picture with 2 seperate and distinct clutches of eggs at day 0/1.  You can see the one day old eggs are grey and the new eggs are clear

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Here they are at about day 1/2.
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Day 2/3
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Ok, fast forward to day 7/8 and it's time to take the eggs out to the hatchery.  You can see that there are fewer eggs than before.  I think I may have been a day late to harvest all of them.

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Lots of little eyes!

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Here's a picture of the hatchery.  Much to the dismay of the wife, the fish stuff has finally busted out into another area of the house.  Bottom tier are rotifer buckets.  Middle tier is phyto and hatch tank.  Top tier are water jugs so I can save a few trips to get water.

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Rotifers...
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Close up of middle tier and hatch tank.
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Ok tile and eggs are in the hatch tank.
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Well, the bad news is that this batch did not make it.  The eggs hatched and the larvae were jumping around and trying to eat the rotifers.  But within 24 hours they were dead.  I think the problem is that my rotifer density was not high enough and the hatch tank water may have gotten fouled.  Based on one of those SeaChem Ammonia Alert badges I had in there, the levels were a little high.

The good news is that I have a new batch of eggs that were laid last week.  
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I plan to take them out tomorrow night.  Let's hope I get a little further along on this one...

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Dave,

 

Nice thread!!  Love the pics.  Couple things I forgot to mention in the PMs.  Take everything out of the tank except heater after they hatch.  You also need to "black" out the sides and I suggest you paint or place a white piece of paper under the tank.  

 

Do you notice the newly hatched larvae have a yolk sac?  Normally they may not eat for the first day or so, so I doubt they died because of lack of food.  It is possible that they beat themselves to death chasing the light.  Larvae are phototrophic.  A light on a dimmer is the best as you can adjust as necessary.

 

Good luck and keep up the good work!

 

Put me in line for a couple of them when you get them past meta!

 

BTW, do you know how long they stay in the larval stage?

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Dave,

 

I meant to ask... when you say dart around what does that mean?   For Clowns and Dottybacks, they will curl there tail, like a snake about to strike, and then lunge at the food.  When you see it you will know.  It happens in almost slow motion.  If they are darting as in swimming around then that is not a feeding behavior I have seen.

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OH WOW!!! This is so wonderful. I'm so happy they're still alive and breeding. I'm ecstatic that you're raising them. Great job, Dave!!! When they get big enough Id's really like to purchase a few from you. This is just too cool.  

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Ver cool thread. It sounds like you are getting great advice. What about using a small light to attract them to one end at feeding time? I am anxious to try breeding myself but just don't have the time right now.

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Dave, what resources did you use to figure out the rotifers, phyto, tile encouragement, etc? How often do you have to mess with the cultures?

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Very cool Dave.  Would adding some Dr. Tim's Live Nitrifying Bacteria to the hatch tank to combat the ammonia help at all?  It has instantly cycled my QT tank, and other tanks before with no ammonia spikes.

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Dave,

 

Nice thread!!  Love the pics.  Couple things I forgot to mention in the PMs.  Take everything out of the tank except heater after they hatch.  You also need to "black" out the sides and I suggest you paint or place a white piece of paper under the tank.  

 

Do you notice the newly hatched larvae have a yolk sac?  Normally they may not eat for the first day or so, so I doubt they died because of lack of food.  It is possible that they beat themselves to death chasing the light.  Larvae are phototrophic.  A light on a dimmer is the best as you can adjust as necessary.

 

Good luck and keep up the good work!

 

Put me in line for a couple of them when you get them past meta!

 

BTW, do you know how long they stay in the larval stage?

 

Dave,

 

Nice thread!!  Love the pics.  Couple things I forgot to mention in the PMs.  Take everything out of the tank except heater after they hatch.  You also need to "black" out the sides and I suggest you paint or place a white piece of paper under the tank.  

 

Do you notice the newly hatched larvae have a yolk sac?  Normally they may not eat for the first day or so, so I doubt they died because of lack of food.  It is possible that they beat themselves to death chasing the light.  Larvae are phototrophic.  A light on a dimmer is the best as you can adjust as necessary.

 

Good luck and keep up the good work!

 

Put me in line for a couple of them when you get them past meta!

 

BTW, do you know how long they stay in the larval stage?

 

 

Dave,

 

I meant to ask... when you say dart around what does that mean?   For Clowns and Dottybacks, they will curl there tail, like a snake about to strike, and then lunge at the food.  When you see it you will know.  It happens in almost slow motion.  If they are darting as in swimming around then that is not a feeding behavior I have seen.

 

 

So totally forgot to give you a shoutout.  You've been very helpful with the starter rots and all your advice.  Definitely isn't enough time in the day to figure all this out from scratch on my own and the literature out there is limited (did I mention very few people have actually bred these guys?) and does have some contradictions.  Also should also thank Almon as I got a lot of my starting equipment and tips from him.  WAMAS at it's best!

 

I'm currently just blocking the sides of the fry tank with cardboard.  May go to actual black paint if I have time to stop by HomeDepot today before I move the eggs.  I don't see much of a yolk sac but I haven't gotten a microscope to put them under yet.  They are tiny!

 

As far as the larvae swimming, they remind me of jumping beans.  They kinda go bounce up and down in the water column, sometimes going to the side too.  They definitely use their tail to do this but it's a series of 4-8 quick consecutive jumps as opposed to one directed lunge.  I'll try to get some video but not hopeful given their size...

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OH WOW!!! This is so wonderful. I'm so happy they're still alive and breeding. I'm ecstatic that you're raising them. Great job, Dave!!! When they get big enough Id's really like to purchase a few from you. This is just too cool.  

 

Hey Jan, I figured you would enjoy hearing about my adventure with these guys.

 

Ver cool thread. It sounds like you are getting great advice. What about using a small light to attract them to one end at feeding time? I am anxious to try breeding myself but just don't have the time right now.

So something that I never knew until I really go into this is that you don't "feed" the larvae like you do in a fish tank where you drop some food in and they get it.  You basically fill the entire larvae tank with food so they are basically surrounded by it.  As Scott told me, you want it so they are never more than a body length or so away from food.  So imagine you fish swimming in a tank full of mysis.  No need for a light to attract them to the food.

 

 

Dave, what resources did you use to figure out the rotifers, phyto, tile encouragement, etc? How often do you have to mess with the cultures?

As with most things in the hobby, I did a bunch of reading online (and the Wilkerson book) and then I spoke in detail with someone who's doing it to clear up all the confusion/contradiction/mis-interpretation.  If someone is interested, I can get into more detail on the phyto and rotifer culturing but it's pretty standard stuff and I'm not 100% certain I'm doing it right just yet as I haven't been successful. 

 

As far as tile encouragement, I just got lucky or something.  Basically the acro colony that they were laying under broke off during a water change.  So I replaced it with a tile.  The fish took to is since it was in the same location and similar texture.  I think the key is to make sure there was an overhang and they could lay eggs UNDER the tile as opposed to on top like clowns.  I got that idea since they were laying eggs on the underside of the acro.  Then unfortunately the rock structure that the tile was on broke off and the batch of eggs on the tile died.  I quickly moved the tile to a nearby place.  I figure if it was near enough, they would adopt the new spot.  A couple of weeks later they were at it again!

 

Very cool Dave.  Would adding some Dr. Tim's Live Nitrifying Bacteria to the hatch tank to combat the ammonia help at all?  It has instantly cycled my QT tank, and other tanks before with no ammonia spikes.

I don't think bacteria will t help with the ammonia.  Like a QT tank, there aren't any live rock or surfaces for the bacteria to grow on.  It's a simple bare tank.  If ammonia builds up, I'll mostly have to rely on water changes.

 

Very cool, love the pictures. How often are they laying eggs? Keep the pictures and updates coming.

It's about every 2 weeks or so.  I haven't tracked that too closely.  It's basically 7-8 days to hatch after laying.  Then there is a week or so before new eggs come.  I'll track this closer next time.

 

Thanks for all the interest everyone!

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I don't think bacteria will t help with the ammonia.  Like a QT tank, there aren't any live rock or surfaces for the bacteria to grow on.  It's a simple bare tank.  If ammonia builds up, I'll mostly have to rely on water changes.

 

How do you do water changes with such little guys and avoid sucking them out?  Do you put a light at one end and carefully pull out water from the other?

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How do you do water changes with such little guys and avoid sucking them out?  Do you put a light at one end and carefully pull out water from the other?

 

Vinyl airline tubing with a piece of rigid tube at the end.  Basically the opening is smaller than the vinyl tubing and it's somewhat slow suction.  I then look in the bucket and see if any guys got sucked out.  Part of the process also is to suck out the dead larvae too.

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Are you getting the herky jerky spasms, 8-10 times, in a circle, uncontrollably? not really a feeding response, just a bunch of violent jerkings. Almost like a light cameon fast and they are freaking out?

 

I asked that question a lot with the clowns, and the consensus I got was that it may have been a nutritional thing with the parents. The fatter the parents, the larger the clutches, a more fortified fry, and consequently less of the herky jerkies (absolutely a scientific term). Pederson seemed to conclude this as well.

 

Try making sure mom and dad are really well fed, and of course pristine water.

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Totally awesome. I'll bet it takes a couple of clutches to get it dialed in right.

 

 How big is the hatch tank? You might be able to make it a lot smaller in the beginning so that it is easier to keep the rotifer density up without adding a lot of rotifers that will not be eaten and foul the water.  

 

One of the things I do with the baby bangaii is I don't turn on a light over the tank. All they get is the ambient light in the room. This might help avoid the phototrophic response a bit. Bangaiis can do the sudden fright syndrome thing in response to rapid environmental changes so I just avoid light shock by not using a directed light.

 

I know these are so much harder than live bearers though, so it may not be relevant.  

 

Good luck!

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The hatch tank is a 10G which I fill about 1/3-1/2 way.  I thought about finding a 5G tank in order to reduce water volume even further but, in addition to now owning one, I'm wonder if <2.5G is a large enough body of water to keep stable. 

 

I'm going to make some adjustments for tonight's batch and see if I get further.

 

Ahhh, the joy of trial and error....

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So I transferred the eggs to the hatch tank just after dinner.  As I was about to go to bed, I decided to take a peek and see how things were doing.  Well I guess one guy decided to come out early.  Here's a short video of the little guy.  It's hosted by Photobucket and you should be able to see it by clicking on the frame.  Please excuse the dirty glass...

 

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From the short video, everyone can get an idea of how they "swim".  Doug, is this what you were seeing?

 

Also, using the light column, you can get an idea of the rotifer density in the tank.  I'm thinking it should be high enough.  Thoughts for anyone who's raised fish before??

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Dave,

 

Nice video.  Your density looks ok, it is tough to tell from a 2D perspective, but I see lots of rots.  In Wilkerson's book she mentions the vial trick.  If you fill a test vial with your water you can easily count the rotifers.  I don't remember what the number was and don't have the book with me now, so you'd have to look it up. 

 

The swimming doesn't look terrible, but it is hard to judge with such a short video.  In my experience once you have the light levels correct the larvae will just kinda hover around waiting for a rot to pass by and then start tracking it.  These are the things I would check:

 

-Light in the tank

-current in the tank (this may be a bit high watching the video)

-culture density with appropriate food

 

Once  you have those dialed in the rearing tank is set.  Nutrition in the parents and thus fry is very very important as well.  The fry don't have a chance unless they started with a fighting chance.

 

 

Green water cultures.  Many breeders have gone away from culturing and instead by the algae pastes now commonly available.  These are a bit expensive, but can be stored in the fridge for a while and dosed slowly.  It is difficult to tell if the rots are eating the algae and even more to tell what type of algea you are culturing.  It seems many times a culture of Nanno or Iso will crash just to be replaced with something worthless from the air.  This is another benefit of the paste.  Disclaimer that I have never used the paste, but it does take one variable out of the equation (as long as it is from a reputable source).  I believe Brineshrimp direct and Florida Aqua Farms sells one.  See link:

 

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/Algae-Pastes-c6.html

 

Another option is to buy the phyto cocktail from a local store (QR sells them) and start to culture that.  This is normally a mix and Nanno normally wins out in the end.   Nanno is supposedly the easiest to culture, but the least nutritional.

 

You will be able to tell very quickly if the fry are taking rotifers by examining them under a magnifying glass.  You will see the little orange dots arranged in the stomach cavity.  If you don't see this in the first couple days then they are not eating.  Sometimes you have to sacrifice one to learn what is going on.

 

I think I found a problem.  It just occurred to me that your rearing tank water was very clear.  You need to tint this as well.  You don't need much, but it helps with the light difusion and has the added benefit of feeding the rots that haven't been eaten.  

 

 

As a side note I read the article you linked to.  Wittenrich seems to know his stuff and he references raising them with copepod nauplii.  That may be a problem for you just trying to use rots, but keep trying any way.  If you don't see the gut full then this may be your problem.

 

Good luck!

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+1 to everything Scott_LM said. 

 

The video was awesome! So cool that you can see two eyes and the swimming pattern.

 

The reason for using green water is really for three reasons.

 

1. To diffuse the light and also makes prey easier to see. (The rotifers stand out as white against the darker background.

2. Using live phyto allows the phyto to "clean" your tank water by helping to remove or lower the ammonia.

3. Rotifers have continual food to eat in the tank until they are consumed making them as nutritious as possible when they are consumed.

 

Again make sure you black out the light except the room light. That includes the light on the heater. 

 

Good Luck! I can't wait to hear more about your efforts! Keep posting!

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